Eddy’s HR Mavericks Podcast
Created by Eddy and our HR Mavericks community.
Compliance and Caring Aren’t in Conflict w/ Bob Coursey
In episode 70, we talked with Bob Coursey about his take on the intersection between compliance and compassion.
Episode 70
In business, it’s easy to slip into an “us-versus-them” mindset. When an issue arises, there’s the company on one side, the employee on the other, and human resources—or a legal team—stuck in the middle of the fight. But moving away from this adversarial mindset benefits everyone in both the short- and long-term. On this episode of the HR Mavericks podcast, Bob Coursey shares his take on the intersection between compliance and compassion. As an attorney and owner at Modern Age Employment Law LLC, Bob has spent 20-plus years litigating employment law cases. In that time, he’s come to realize that viewing employees as human beings is the key to handling conflict. We talked about:
- The real purpose of employment law (and lawyers)
- How seeing employees as people helps with compliance issues
- Going beyond legal requirements to help employees
- How the younger generations are changing the workforce
- Consequences that come from not treating employees well
- Tips for changing your company’s approach to compliance
Get in touch with Bob by emailing him at bobcoursey@modernagelaw.com or visiting his website.
Bob Coursey
Bob has been an employment law attorney for over 20 years. He spent his first 10 years of practice at Fisher Phillips, one of the most respected employment law firms in the country, where he defended companies in employment related litigation. He then spent 11 years at Employers Council, where he focused his practice on keeping employers out of trouble. In 2021, Bob started his own company—Modern Age Employment Law—where he counsels, represents, and trains employers who are looking for a modern approach to their employment law and HR challenges. Bob earned his bachelor’s degree in English from George Mason University in Virginia in 1992. In 1998, he received his law degree, with honors, from Georgia State University College of Law in Atlanta, where he also served on the Law Review. Bob is licensed to practice law in Utah and Georgia. He’s also a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) and SHRM Senior Certified Professional (SHRM-SCP). Despite all that very dry sounding info, Bob is actually a real person too. He is a music lover, an OK drummer who still dreams of being a rock star, a daily meditator, a Peloton enthusiast, an avid reader, and a lover of Utah’s outdoors. Most importantly, he’s a husband and father of four sons who bring him immense joy.
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Garrett Jestice: Welcome to the next episode of the HR Mavericks podcast. I'm Garrett Jestice, and today I'm joined by Bob Coursey, who's an attorney and owner at Modern Age Employment Law. Bob, how are you doing today?
[00:00:13] Bob Coursey: I'm doing great, Garrett. How are you?
[00:00:16] Garrett Jestice: Doing great. How are you enjoying the cold weather in downtown Salt Lake City today?
[00:00:21] Bob Coursey: God, trying to be philosophical about it, really. I, I'm not a cold weather person. I am, this is a whole nother topic, but I, I, I'm a meditator and I'm trying to be very mindful and appreciative of being in the moment and all things must pass and summer and shorts weather and all that stuff, and cut up t-shirts don't last forever, and I'm trying to find acceptance in knowing that I'll have so much joy next spring when it comes back, but I don't like it. Short answer is I don't like it, but the long answer I just gave you.
[00:00:51] Garrett Jestice: I, I hear you. Good for you. It's, you know, for those outside of Utah right now as we're recording this, we just kind of got the, the cold front that just hit recently. It's like winter's all of a sudden here, which, what happens in Utah. So. Well, Bob, it's great to have you on the show today. Super excited to jump into this topic.
I think it's gonna be really great. But before we do, tell our listeners just a little bit more about your background and also what your company Modern Age Employment Law does.
[00:01:15] Bob Coursey: Okay, let me, I'll start from way back in time and then move up into the present day. So, as you just said, Garrett, my name is Bob Coursey. I'm an employment lawyer. That's really all I've ever done in my, my adult life. Graduated law school in 1998, after taking an employment discrimination class, I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do.
Got a job at an employment law firm called Fisher, Ben Fisher, and Phillips, now just Fisher Phillips. Worked there from 1998 to 2008, litigating employment law cases. So defending companies who are being sued for the most part. That's pretty much 90, probably 95 if not more percent of how I spent my days. Sort of got, not sort of, I really got burned outta that at the end.
Actually quit that job after making partner, which was like everything I worked for. And when I reached it I was sort of like, well, this isn't, ah, I'm not sure if this is what I really want in life. I quit law. I actually quit law for two years. Thought I was done with it. Went out again, another tangent, but went out to be a personal trainer for two years.
I, I tried to do something very unlike law. Something, you know, another part of my personality. That was fun. I liked personal training. I love working with clients. There's actually a lot of similarities as far as the client relationships, but I will tell you, unless, I always say unless you're are training a Kardashian, it's not an easy way to make a living.
So I really struggled financially through that. Went about two years and then found a job at an organization called Employers Council. And there's a lot, lot to say about that, but I'll say it in a very short, concise way. It sort of, it my, my starting that job gave me a new faith that there was a way to practice employment law that I could love.
I did not believe that when I, when I quit a couple of years earlier. So I, my, my focus, I was still doing employment law, but my focus changed. It really totally flipped from defending companies who were being sued. So I was in, working with, in court, I was, you know, I was litigating, that's what we call it, to not litigating at all for about 12 years at Employers Council and really spending most of my time helping companies stay away from litigation, you know, through, through being there on the phone, through, through the emails and the phone calls, and through training companies on compliance, employment related compliance issues.
[00:03:37] Bob Coursey: So that was still practicing employment law, like I said, but a very much more proactive, much more in my experience, life affirming and, and feeling a good feeling way of practicing law. So that, that lasted until I decided to leave there. It was, gosh, almost exactly, almost exactly a year ago, late 2021, I parted with Employers Council, and very quickly decided I wanted to do something that took everything that I really had learned.
Not, not necessarily about employment law, but of course that's important too, but more about how to practice employment law and how to help clients best. Because I'd seen, you know, a decade at a big law firm, I'd seen more than a decade at a, at a, at another organization. They both do a lot of things great. I met tons of great people, but I also feel like I've learned a lot about what I think is the best way to work with clients and to help companies comply with employment laws and really to the focus of our conversation today....
I get a little soapboxy and I feel like I've earned it at this point, almost 25 years in. One thing I really firmly believe in is I want companies to, to think hard about the way they treat employees, not from a legal compliance standpoint, but from treating their employees as real humans. And, and I don't want to get steal our own thunder because that's where we're going, but that sort of brings us to now my, my company Modern Age Employment Law. I've taken the best of what I've learned from my 24 plus years, and now it's just me.
[00:05:17] Bob Coursey: Modern Age Employment Law is, is Bob, is me, which is so much fun. Scary as as hell at first, but I'm sort of through the scary phase. It's working. I love my clients. I can't say enough about 'em. I get to pick and choose who I work with. I don't work with anybody. I don't have to. I have the luxury of working with only clients either I already know or I have a reason to believe are gonna be awesome clients who sort of share my philosophy again, like we'll be talking about momentarily and, and I'll leave it there. But that sort of brings us to where, where, how my practice is today.
[00:05:50] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Awesome, awesome context and, you know, amazing journey that you've been on in your career so far. You know, before we jump into this topic, which you, you kind of alluded to, which is gonna be amazing, tell us a little bit more about the types of companies who you typically work with today for Modern Age Employment Law.
I mean, are these small companies, are they big companies? You know, what are they coming to you for and what do you help them with? The.
[00:06:13] Bob Coursey: Great question, Garrett and I, and thank you. I, I appreciate the chance to answer that Because it's important for companies to know, you know, whether, whether I would be a good fit or not. I tell you, like I said, I'm a one person show. I, I'm gonna sound real cocky. I'm a good one person. I'm real good at what I do, but I'm only one person.
So my, my capacity is limited by that. So I tend to be, my sweet spot are really the companies, for one companies I've known and worked with. You know, either just from, you know, professional or personal settings or friends of friends or LinkedIn connections. I have so many coming to me through connections and that is really cool.
They, they sort of know who I am already. So the, the, it's almost they're pre-screening themselves, but for people who know nothing about me, if you are a 10,000 person copmany, one, you darn well better have a pretty sophisticated HR team, if not a legal team. I'm probably not your guy. I can answer your day to day questions, but if you have big projects, you're probably not gonna be, I'm probably not your guy.
But for those companies who have either no, certainly if you have no HR department, you, you need help. And sometimes that can't be a full-time or even a part-time HR person. So I have a lot of those clients, which is really, those are really rewarding to work with. You know, they're, they're not, they're never gonna be the ones that, that, you know, put my kids through college.
But, they're so great to work with. And at this point in my career, that's really more important to me. but really also the mid-size companies. Those are, most of my companies, companies within the hundreds or low thousands of employees. I have tons of clients over the years who I've helped with in that range.
And those tend to be the ones who are working with me now. So yeah, I work with very small companies, you know, some that are less than 20 employees. That's not gonna keep me busy. I, I probably don't work with any companies, I'm trying to think, that are 10,000 employees or more, maybe not even 5,000 employees or more, but between that huge range in the middle, that's, that's sort of my people.
[00:08:15] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I know that's, you know, it overlaps a lot with our audience for this podcast and also for the HR Mavericks community. And I'll just mention too, before we jump into our topic again, I know, Bob, you got involved, you know, early on with the HR Mavericks community last year when you kind of started this business and have kind of been a member there and assisted, you know, with a lot of stuff.
And we're super happy to have you on the podcast today. Do your first podcast episode as a member of the HR Mavericks community.
[00:08:41] Bob Coursey: Yeah. Garrett, I feel I can't, I I was, I mentioned this a little bit before we started. I can't help but feel a little guilty that here we are a year or so into me connecting with you guys. I, I'll keep this short, but I thought I was gonna be really active with you because I thought I was gonna be working really hard, hustling for clients.
And then this is nothing but great news. The clients came, my awesome clients came, the quality work came. I didn't have time to write all the articles and join in on all the things. So here we are over a year, roughly a year later, and I'm finally contributing. So I'm excited about it.
[00:09:16] Garrett Jestice: Well, we are too. That's okay. I think sometimes, you know, we have lots of members of the community who may have been some of those passive members at first, and then, you know, times and seasons happen and they're able to get more involved. So I want to encourage anyone out there who maybe is a member, you know, if that's the case, then, you know, follow Bob's lead here and, and jump in when the time presents itself. But....
[00:09:38] Bob Coursey: Let me, Garrett, this is not, I, this is, I promised audience. This is not something Garrett asked me to do, but I just wanna tell also publicly, I have been so impressed watching what you guys have done, your activity. I follow it closely. Your growth is so impressive. So I just wanna make sure I say that and, and leave it at that.
[00:09:57] Garrett Jestice: Well, thank you so much. It's, it's thanks to members like you, Right, who can contribute and jump on the podcast and help us with HR Encyclopedia, articles and everything else. So well with that, Bob, I'm super excited to jump into this, this topic. Let's do it. You, you kind of in your intro, talking about your background, kind of laid the groundwork for what we wanna talk about today, which is really this idea that compliance and caring aren't necessarily always in conflict.
And so to start us off on that path a little bit, you know, I'm gonna kind of jump right into it. I think that, you know, many employees believe that employment lawyers who counsel, represent management teams right, are often anti employee. Right, They're out, similar to like what you described a little bit in that first, you know, job that you had where you were doing a lot of litigation, it's really about how do we protect and get the most out of this for the business, but not necessarily for the employee.
So if there are people who feel that way who are listening to this, what would you say to those people?
[00:11:01] Bob Coursey: Well first those people, it's not just employees. Those people include a lot of my friends and even family members. Who, who I think have that mentality that when they hear someone's focus, you know, well first off lawyer, most people don't have great feelings about lawyers in general. So we, I start with that against me.
And then there's, oh, what do you do? I practice employment law. Oh, so you, you help, you help employees who are being treated badly. No, my focus is to help help companies. I help companies and I try to keep them out of trouble. And if they get in trouble, I'll try my best to help them have that trouble be as small as possible.
[00:11:38] Bob Coursey: And, and I, a lot of people, like I said, including my own family, hopefully no one anymore, I've had many talks over the 24 years I've been practicing. A lot of people think that means my job is, you know, I'm the man and my job is to squash the little guy or the little girl, the employees. and, and, it's so far from the truth, and, and that reminds me of really where this whole, the whole idea germinated, if that's the right word. It was a discussion I had with a fellow employment lawyer, a friend of mine now, I won't say her name cause I didn't ask her if, if I have her permission, but she's, now becoming a very good friend and I love her as an employment lawyer. Also, another management side employment lawyer.
And I made a comment, you know, sort of a flippant comment about, you know, keep on fighting the good fight for America's employers. And, and she said, She corrected me in a, in a, stern, but joking, but stern way. She was like, well, actually what I'm doing is protecting employees. And, and what she was doing that day was very much about helping the underdog employees, not trying to help the employer in any way.
And I sort of had one of those moments, like, of course I almost just said her name, but of course, I, I know that I have this discussion with my friends and family all the time, and that inspired me to write a LinkedIn post and that led to an article and that led to this, you know, basically led to us sitting here today.
It is so common for people to think that we employment lawyers who represent mostly management, our job is to, is to make life harder for employees and, and I will tell you, and you, and you said it absolutely correctly, Garrett, at first, that is sort of how I, This is not to badmouth anybody I've ever worked with, but that is sort of how I, I'll put the responsibility on me.
My first 10 years at a employment law law firm where I mostly litigated, that is the mentality I took. And I'm not, I'm not proud of saying it now. It, I'll tell you, it was very effective. I was a very good employment litigator. I got the job done, but I just developed a very, it seems like a very hard shell.
I'm not gonna say anti employee, but certainly the employee's concern really wasn't my concern. My concern was getting my company out of trouble or, or minimizing whatever trouble. If there whatever side effects that might have on the employee or employees was just not my concern. I don't feel like that anymore.
And, and, and I think, again, I'll, I don't wanna get too ahead of ourselves, but I think, I think that answers your question. It gets us poised for wherever you want to go next.
[00:14:13] Garrett Jestice: Yeah. Perfect. And so the next question I have for you really on this topic is, it seems like employment law within companies or, you know, quote unquote compliance initiatives, right? They can often feel like an us-versus-them battle between management and employees, right? And so how do the best businesses out there, how are they changing that narrative?
Like, how, how do, how do businesses move away from that mentality of that like us-versus-them?
[00:14:40] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I think, I think it's, Well, I'll answer it. I think there's two parts. The first part I think is crucial and that's just having, getting away from that being your knee jerk reaction. And I think it relates to what I was just saying, that that did sort of become, my mentality for, you know, my young lawyer life, and I know there's a lot of companies that would, if there's an employee issue, you know, this isn't just an employment, this is how a lot of people are.
If somebody accuses us of something or, or, or says, or says, criticizes us or says, we're not treating them fairly. Our instinct, whether we're a human or a company, is to put up a wall and be defensive. You know, I think for a lot of us. So I think the first step is trying to not have it instantly be your reaction as a company or an HR person when an employee brings an issue, you know, usually some kind of, it might be an issue bringing their personal life into the workplace, for example.
And, you know, that tends to make HR people uncomfortable and we just don't like it. Well, let's, let's maybe get away from our instinct being to get defensive and put a wall up and try to, you know, block the humanity of that situation. The second step is, is definitely the harder one. And that's, I think figuring out which issues are the us-versus-them and, and which aren't, because don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things that happen in the workplace that are so, so maybe damaging or potentially damaging or dangerous.
You know, threatening to, whether it's to an employee or, or the public or, or the business that, that you sort of do have to treat some things like an us-versus-them. And like you said, once you're sued, it's sort of hard at that point to, to put the genie back in the bottle. You know, it is us-versus-them when you're being sued, but there are so many situations.
Like I said, let me throw out some, An employee comes to you with a request for, for a disability accommodation or, or accommodations are a great example. It could be a disability accommodation, a religious accommodation, an accommodation for gender identity. There's lots of things that might, might be even legally required, and that's great.
If you're a company, you should know what your legal requirements are. But I guess I would also say, let's go, where we can, look for ways to do things that maybe are beyond what's legally required. There's a lot of accommodations that an employee may request because of stuff going on at home. You know, kid stuff, kid school stuff, medical stuff that maybe isn't a legal issue like an ADA or an FMLA.
And I'm going to assume our HR audience knows when I throw out some of those acronyms. But that doesn't mean as an HR person or employer, we can't still look at this person as a human and say, hey, we don't have to put our defenses up. Let's see if there's a way that we can work with this person.
And, and I, I feel like I have to say this as a disclaimer, Garrett, forgive me if this sounds too, too cya. As a lawyer, I'm not suggesting at all that someone like me is a lawyer or even an HR person with their own, you know, business or personal ethics. I'm not suggesting put the company second. We're getting paid to do a job.
We put the company first. We really have to, I, I have an, an actual ethical duty. Everyone has their own ethics, but I'm not suggesting ever put an employee's interest over the company's. I mean, a company can do that, that's their business. But I can't, I shouldn't advise them and I don't probably think an HR person should, but I'm really suggesting to just consider, at least consider that there is a human -- and not just a human, a human's family, a human's community, which is often your community, you know, the HR person. Again, I get it, I, I could get very preachy sounding on this, and this could get very big and global sounding, but I think I'll, I'll leave it at there for Yeah. The us the us-versus-them one is a tricky thing.
So the answer is first, get used to it not being your instinct, your knee jerk reaction. Figure out, get better at sorting, which are the us-versus-them situations. And then I guess the third step is, is the really nuanced one. And that's how to handle those that are, are not the ones that are the easy, you know, black and white issues.
[00:18:56] Garrett Jestice: Yeah, for sure. And what's really interesting about what I'm hearing you say too, is it sounds like, and I think we've all experienced this, especially the last few years with, you know, the great resignation and so many other changes happening in this space that there, there is a change happening. You know, in the past maybe companies, there was more of an us-versus-them mentality years ago, and many companies could survive and you know, be successful with that mentality.
But we're seeing employees kind of stand up against that mentality today. And so the best employers out there are the ones who are figuring out how to again, meet employees at the table and figure out how to take care of their employees in order to get the best results for the business also, is that right?
[00:19:43] Bob Coursey: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, and gosh, I, I, another big topic and I know we're limited on time. Let me just say a couple things that, that go in through my mind when you say that one. I absolutely do think times are changing. Now I know people say that all the time, and that's cause it's true times by definition are always changing.
And, and there's labor market ebbs and flows. There's unemployment ebbs and flows. There's obviously inflation ebbs and flows. There's lots of different business and, and financial and fiscal things that are gonna come and go. It's not always gonna be like this. And, and, and it's not just the way that companies treat their employees that are causing all these things to change.
[00:20:25] Bob Coursey: So let's just, let's just not overstate this, but again, I'll, I'll, I'll say I know something. After 24 years of watching, I've seen a lot of these cycles. I firmly believe something fundamental is changing right now. And, and this isn't just me, I'm not gonna claim credit for this, but I do believe this isn't just another cycle where, you know, we have a Democrat president where the unions seem to be gaining power.
You know, the government is getting filled with more democratic appointees so that, you know, that changes the dynamic. We've seen all that before. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, I, I think it's a generational thing really. I think it's the, the, the people in their entering the workforce now and those who are, what did I just read?
Was it the oldest or the youngest millennials or something are entering, entering the workforce? I don't know. I can never keep all the generations right. But it's the 20 somethings, the 30 somethings, you know, and, and, and you know, people with that mentality who could certainly be older, who are really, I think not gonna put up with the same BS ways that companies have treated employees in a very fundamental way, probably since the Industrial revolution.
You know, not to get too big, but you see it in these kids who are just calling BS on companies practices. And, and you know, I'll, I'll tell you, I work with HR people. I know it can be very frustrating. There's a lot of, you know, people say, Oh, they're always whining. They're so entitled. They expect all these things on day one.
[00:21:59] Bob Coursey: Well, we can whine, we can whine about that, or we can say, well, that's, that's our next generation of employees and we have to meet them where they are. I think. So I think the good companies, like you said, either they're already doing it, they're, they're treating, they're starting to get into this a fundamental, I think, paradigm shift of putting the humanity back in the relationship a little bit.
And that's a really simplistic way of saying it, but I, I'm trying to be succinct for time. So the good companies are already doing it, but I'll tell you companies that maybe have never had to worry about this before, if you're paying attention, you're seeing all kinds of things hitting you over the head, telling you, you, whether you want to do this, you can do it for, I'll give you two reasons.
You can do it because you're, you just wanna be altruistic. That's awesome. You know, I, I welcome, I, I, I, I, let's, let's make the world a better place, or if that doesn't float your boat, you can do it for selfish self-interested reasons because you're gonna get lose employees. That's what's we're seeing right now.
Obviously the great resignation and all the other stuff. The quiet quitting, all these, all these things happening. More my world, the unionizing efforts that we are seeing in Utah, which, you know, I know that you probably have people outside of Utah, but most of us are I think here in Utah. Do you guys all know that?
Do you know that we have a Starbucks unionized? Do you know we have union activity here in Utah? Who was it? A friend of mine just told me that their, their spouse just said their, their company is, oh, yeah, I know who it is. A big company union activity that you would not think here in Utah. So you're gonna, you're gonna be, this lesson is gonna get shoved down your throat soon enough, either because of lost employees, lost productivity.
Union activity or being unionized. It, and then a little bit more removed, but along the same lines, more, more call from your, your fellow voters for government action, you know, for government more of a government regulation, which we can all have our own personal political opinions about that, and I certainly do, but, you know, typically companies aren't, aren't clamoring for more regulation of the workplace.
[00:24:09] Bob Coursey: That's not typically what people in my world are wanting. But if we don't treat employees well, I think we deserve it. You know, I, I think we're gonna get. Employees leaving, unions coming, more restrictive laws being passed, and like I said, it's, it'll be, I know it's sort of harsh, but I think it'll be deserved for the company that didn't, didn't try to make a change when they had a chance.
[00:24:33] Garrett Jestice: Great points. And so for those companies who are well intentioned, who want to, are noticing this change that you talked about that is taking place and they wanna balance that compliance while also sh showing sincere care for those employees, what tips you know, would you have for those companies who are realizing that's the state that we're in right now and they want to make a change, but still, you know, maintain a healthy company and also help their employees feel that they actually care. What, what would you recommend they do?
[00:25:06] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I, I, I certainly wish I had really specific 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And if you do these, you'll succeed. I don't have that. I wish I did. I, I will, let me start with this. I, like I said, I'm a one person company. I have never been able to spout off whatever opinion I want about how the workplace should be Because, until I have my own company, because I always had to, you know, it's not like I was often direct disapproval of, of the sa of the message my company was, you know, maybe aligned with, but there's a certain discretion you have to have.
Now, because I'm my own company and because I've been doing this long enough, I, I, I get on my soapbox sometimes. I don't necessarily recommend that every one of you listening, especially if you're sort of newer into HR or newer in your company, take that same approach, you know? I wouldn't go in, you know, you know, just gungho saying, we've gotta save the world. This company needs to start taking care of our employees and make the world a better place.
That's probably not, that's not the best starting position for you as an HR person. And you probably know that it's the same message you hear all the time. HR, yeah, we tend to be the people with, with, you know, big hearts and we care about employees, but if we speak that language to the CEO and CFO and the, the people who are the numbers people, there's gonna be a disconnect.
So HR, the best HR people, that's a great HR skill that every one of you should be honing. How to communicate with the C-Suite people. If you're not, if you're not a company who I think is awesome and you have a HR C-Suite position, that would be certainly awesome. But if you're not, you gotta talk that talk.
So take my message and if this inspires you, that's awesome. But you're gonna have to translate it and probably tone it down and figure out a way to take it to your company. But absolutely. Let me, let me say this. Let's not, again, forget that my point is not put the business. Second, I am saying this will simultaneously, when you put in in, in the, in the appropriate scenarios, when you get into the mindset of looking at your employees, not just as obstacles or nuisances or problems or potential lawsuits, but as real humans allowing yourself to see the humanity.
Not, not maybe some of the, the ways that we as, as HR people and employment lawyers have been training the last 20 years as I've been watching, which is really putting the defenses up, looking for ways to keep any potential legal issue as far out of the workplace as possible. I guess Garrett, that's really where I think you start trying to make a change is in that philosophy at your company and you start in small ways probably, and you do it always combined with, I hate the, I sort of hate the phrase business case, but that's, that is, that's what it is.
This, hey, we're not just doing this to give away the company farm to this employee. There's good things that will flow either immediately. You know, you could talk about we'll save a good employee, you know, this employee, you know, employees are leaving for all kinds of reasons. If we don't take this opportunity to maybe treat this employee as a human and work with them on something that maybe even we don't legally have to, well, they're gonna remember that and maybe they're gonna be going for 10 cents more an hour or whatever.
So, again, so much to say about each of these points, but I think that's my as short as possible answer.
[00:28:43] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Bob, this has been such a great conversation. I know we probably could, we could just keep going on this topic for, you know, so long you have a wealth of knowledge that's clear and we appreciate you bringing with us today. I know we don't have as much time left, but as we, as we kind of wrap up here, if there are listeners who want to get in contact with you, who wanna learn more about this topic or learn more about working with you, what's the best way for them to do that?.
[00:29:07] Bob Coursey: Okay, my email is bobcoursey@modernagelaw.com. My website is Modern Age Employment Law.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. I think it's, goodness gracious, I should know this, but if you, if you Google me or LinkedIn search me, you'll find my, my Bob Coursey profile. I'm on the other socials, but those are, that's probably the best places to find me.
But yes, feel free to shoot me a, an email directly at that email that address that I gave.
[00:29:40] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. And we will drop the links to all of those things you mentioned in the show notes. So if you're listening, maybe driving in the car. Don't worry about writing that down. Just go back to the show notes and check it out. So, Bob, thank you again so much for being with us today and sharing.
Earn your knowledge with us. We hope you have a great rest of the day.
[00:29:55] Bob Coursey: Thanks, Garrett. It was fun. I'm glad I finally did it after a year, hopefully it won't be another year until we talk.
[00:30:00] Garrett Jestice: Amen. Let's do it again soon. Thank you.
[00:30:02] Bob Coursey: Yeah.
[00:00:13] Bob Coursey: I'm doing great, Garrett. How are you?
[00:00:16] Garrett Jestice: Doing great. How are you enjoying the cold weather in downtown Salt Lake City today?
[00:00:21] Bob Coursey: God, trying to be philosophical about it, really. I, I'm not a cold weather person. I am, this is a whole nother topic, but I, I, I'm a meditator and I'm trying to be very mindful and appreciative of being in the moment and all things must pass and summer and shorts weather and all that stuff, and cut up t-shirts don't last forever, and I'm trying to find acceptance in knowing that I'll have so much joy next spring when it comes back, but I don't like it. Short answer is I don't like it, but the long answer I just gave you.
[00:00:51] Garrett Jestice: I, I hear you. Good for you. It's, you know, for those outside of Utah right now as we're recording this, we just kind of got the, the cold front that just hit recently. It's like winter's all of a sudden here, which, what happens in Utah. So. Well, Bob, it's great to have you on the show today. Super excited to jump into this topic.
I think it's gonna be really great. But before we do, tell our listeners just a little bit more about your background and also what your company Modern Age Employment Law does.
[00:01:15] Bob Coursey: Okay, let me, I'll start from way back in time and then move up into the present day. So, as you just said, Garrett, my name is Bob Coursey. I'm an employment lawyer. That's really all I've ever done in my, my adult life. Graduated law school in 1998, after taking an employment discrimination class, I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do.
Got a job at an employment law firm called Fisher, Ben Fisher, and Phillips, now just Fisher Phillips. Worked there from 1998 to 2008, litigating employment law cases. So defending companies who are being sued for the most part. That's pretty much 90, probably 95 if not more percent of how I spent my days. Sort of got, not sort of, I really got burned outta that at the end.
Actually quit that job after making partner, which was like everything I worked for. And when I reached it I was sort of like, well, this isn't, ah, I'm not sure if this is what I really want in life. I quit law. I actually quit law for two years. Thought I was done with it. Went out again, another tangent, but went out to be a personal trainer for two years.
I, I tried to do something very unlike law. Something, you know, another part of my personality. That was fun. I liked personal training. I love working with clients. There's actually a lot of similarities as far as the client relationships, but I will tell you, unless, I always say unless you're are training a Kardashian, it's not an easy way to make a living.
So I really struggled financially through that. Went about two years and then found a job at an organization called Employers Council. And there's a lot, lot to say about that, but I'll say it in a very short, concise way. It sort of, it my, my starting that job gave me a new faith that there was a way to practice employment law that I could love.
I did not believe that when I, when I quit a couple of years earlier. So I, my, my focus, I was still doing employment law, but my focus changed. It really totally flipped from defending companies who were being sued. So I was in, working with, in court, I was, you know, I was litigating, that's what we call it, to not litigating at all for about 12 years at Employers Council and really spending most of my time helping companies stay away from litigation, you know, through, through being there on the phone, through, through the emails and the phone calls, and through training companies on compliance, employment related compliance issues.
[00:03:37] Bob Coursey: So that was still practicing employment law, like I said, but a very much more proactive, much more in my experience, life affirming and, and feeling a good feeling way of practicing law. So that, that lasted until I decided to leave there. It was, gosh, almost exactly, almost exactly a year ago, late 2021, I parted with Employers Council, and very quickly decided I wanted to do something that took everything that I really had learned.
Not, not necessarily about employment law, but of course that's important too, but more about how to practice employment law and how to help clients best. Because I'd seen, you know, a decade at a big law firm, I'd seen more than a decade at a, at a, at another organization. They both do a lot of things great. I met tons of great people, but I also feel like I've learned a lot about what I think is the best way to work with clients and to help companies comply with employment laws and really to the focus of our conversation today....
I get a little soapboxy and I feel like I've earned it at this point, almost 25 years in. One thing I really firmly believe in is I want companies to, to think hard about the way they treat employees, not from a legal compliance standpoint, but from treating their employees as real humans. And, and I don't want to get steal our own thunder because that's where we're going, but that sort of brings us to now my, my company Modern Age Employment Law. I've taken the best of what I've learned from my 24 plus years, and now it's just me.
[00:05:17] Bob Coursey: Modern Age Employment Law is, is Bob, is me, which is so much fun. Scary as as hell at first, but I'm sort of through the scary phase. It's working. I love my clients. I can't say enough about 'em. I get to pick and choose who I work with. I don't work with anybody. I don't have to. I have the luxury of working with only clients either I already know or I have a reason to believe are gonna be awesome clients who sort of share my philosophy again, like we'll be talking about momentarily and, and I'll leave it there. But that sort of brings us to where, where, how my practice is today.
[00:05:50] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Awesome, awesome context and, you know, amazing journey that you've been on in your career so far. You know, before we jump into this topic, which you, you kind of alluded to, which is gonna be amazing, tell us a little bit more about the types of companies who you typically work with today for Modern Age Employment Law.
I mean, are these small companies, are they big companies? You know, what are they coming to you for and what do you help them with? The.
[00:06:13] Bob Coursey: Great question, Garrett and I, and thank you. I, I appreciate the chance to answer that Because it's important for companies to know, you know, whether, whether I would be a good fit or not. I tell you, like I said, I'm a one person show. I, I'm gonna sound real cocky. I'm a good one person. I'm real good at what I do, but I'm only one person.
So my, my capacity is limited by that. So I tend to be, my sweet spot are really the companies, for one companies I've known and worked with. You know, either just from, you know, professional or personal settings or friends of friends or LinkedIn connections. I have so many coming to me through connections and that is really cool.
They, they sort of know who I am already. So the, the, it's almost they're pre-screening themselves, but for people who know nothing about me, if you are a 10,000 person copmany, one, you darn well better have a pretty sophisticated HR team, if not a legal team. I'm probably not your guy. I can answer your day to day questions, but if you have big projects, you're probably not gonna be, I'm probably not your guy.
But for those companies who have either no, certainly if you have no HR department, you, you need help. And sometimes that can't be a full-time or even a part-time HR person. So I have a lot of those clients, which is really, those are really rewarding to work with. You know, they're, they're not, they're never gonna be the ones that, that, you know, put my kids through college.
But, they're so great to work with. And at this point in my career, that's really more important to me. but really also the mid-size companies. Those are, most of my companies, companies within the hundreds or low thousands of employees. I have tons of clients over the years who I've helped with in that range.
And those tend to be the ones who are working with me now. So yeah, I work with very small companies, you know, some that are less than 20 employees. That's not gonna keep me busy. I, I probably don't work with any companies, I'm trying to think, that are 10,000 employees or more, maybe not even 5,000 employees or more, but between that huge range in the middle, that's, that's sort of my people.
[00:08:15] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I know that's, you know, it overlaps a lot with our audience for this podcast and also for the HR Mavericks community. And I'll just mention too, before we jump into our topic again, I know, Bob, you got involved, you know, early on with the HR Mavericks community last year when you kind of started this business and have kind of been a member there and assisted, you know, with a lot of stuff.
And we're super happy to have you on the podcast today. Do your first podcast episode as a member of the HR Mavericks community.
[00:08:41] Bob Coursey: Yeah. Garrett, I feel I can't, I I was, I mentioned this a little bit before we started. I can't help but feel a little guilty that here we are a year or so into me connecting with you guys. I, I'll keep this short, but I thought I was gonna be really active with you because I thought I was gonna be working really hard, hustling for clients.
And then this is nothing but great news. The clients came, my awesome clients came, the quality work came. I didn't have time to write all the articles and join in on all the things. So here we are over a year, roughly a year later, and I'm finally contributing. So I'm excited about it.
[00:09:16] Garrett Jestice: Well, we are too. That's okay. I think sometimes, you know, we have lots of members of the community who may have been some of those passive members at first, and then, you know, times and seasons happen and they're able to get more involved. So I want to encourage anyone out there who maybe is a member, you know, if that's the case, then, you know, follow Bob's lead here and, and jump in when the time presents itself. But....
[00:09:38] Bob Coursey: Let me, Garrett, this is not, I, this is, I promised audience. This is not something Garrett asked me to do, but I just wanna tell also publicly, I have been so impressed watching what you guys have done, your activity. I follow it closely. Your growth is so impressive. So I just wanna make sure I say that and, and leave it at that.
[00:09:57] Garrett Jestice: Well, thank you so much. It's, it's thanks to members like you, Right, who can contribute and jump on the podcast and help us with HR Encyclopedia, articles and everything else. So well with that, Bob, I'm super excited to jump into this, this topic. Let's do it. You, you kind of in your intro, talking about your background, kind of laid the groundwork for what we wanna talk about today, which is really this idea that compliance and caring aren't necessarily always in conflict.
And so to start us off on that path a little bit, you know, I'm gonna kind of jump right into it. I think that, you know, many employees believe that employment lawyers who counsel, represent management teams right, are often anti employee. Right, They're out, similar to like what you described a little bit in that first, you know, job that you had where you were doing a lot of litigation, it's really about how do we protect and get the most out of this for the business, but not necessarily for the employee.
So if there are people who feel that way who are listening to this, what would you say to those people?
[00:11:01] Bob Coursey: Well first those people, it's not just employees. Those people include a lot of my friends and even family members. Who, who I think have that mentality that when they hear someone's focus, you know, well first off lawyer, most people don't have great feelings about lawyers in general. So we, I start with that against me.
And then there's, oh, what do you do? I practice employment law. Oh, so you, you help, you help employees who are being treated badly. No, my focus is to help help companies. I help companies and I try to keep them out of trouble. And if they get in trouble, I'll try my best to help them have that trouble be as small as possible.
[00:11:38] Bob Coursey: And, and I, a lot of people, like I said, including my own family, hopefully no one anymore, I've had many talks over the 24 years I've been practicing. A lot of people think that means my job is, you know, I'm the man and my job is to squash the little guy or the little girl, the employees. and, and, it's so far from the truth, and, and that reminds me of really where this whole, the whole idea germinated, if that's the right word. It was a discussion I had with a fellow employment lawyer, a friend of mine now, I won't say her name cause I didn't ask her if, if I have her permission, but she's, now becoming a very good friend and I love her as an employment lawyer. Also, another management side employment lawyer.
And I made a comment, you know, sort of a flippant comment about, you know, keep on fighting the good fight for America's employers. And, and she said, She corrected me in a, in a, stern, but joking, but stern way. She was like, well, actually what I'm doing is protecting employees. And, and what she was doing that day was very much about helping the underdog employees, not trying to help the employer in any way.
And I sort of had one of those moments, like, of course I almost just said her name, but of course, I, I know that I have this discussion with my friends and family all the time, and that inspired me to write a LinkedIn post and that led to an article and that led to this, you know, basically led to us sitting here today.
It is so common for people to think that we employment lawyers who represent mostly management, our job is to, is to make life harder for employees and, and I will tell you, and you, and you said it absolutely correctly, Garrett, at first, that is sort of how I, This is not to badmouth anybody I've ever worked with, but that is sort of how I, I'll put the responsibility on me.
My first 10 years at a employment law law firm where I mostly litigated, that is the mentality I took. And I'm not, I'm not proud of saying it now. It, I'll tell you, it was very effective. I was a very good employment litigator. I got the job done, but I just developed a very, it seems like a very hard shell.
I'm not gonna say anti employee, but certainly the employee's concern really wasn't my concern. My concern was getting my company out of trouble or, or minimizing whatever trouble. If there whatever side effects that might have on the employee or employees was just not my concern. I don't feel like that anymore.
And, and, and I think, again, I'll, I don't wanna get too ahead of ourselves, but I think, I think that answers your question. It gets us poised for wherever you want to go next.
[00:14:13] Garrett Jestice: Yeah. Perfect. And so the next question I have for you really on this topic is, it seems like employment law within companies or, you know, quote unquote compliance initiatives, right? They can often feel like an us-versus-them battle between management and employees, right? And so how do the best businesses out there, how are they changing that narrative?
Like, how, how do, how do businesses move away from that mentality of that like us-versus-them?
[00:14:40] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I think, I think it's, Well, I'll answer it. I think there's two parts. The first part I think is crucial and that's just having, getting away from that being your knee jerk reaction. And I think it relates to what I was just saying, that that did sort of become, my mentality for, you know, my young lawyer life, and I know there's a lot of companies that would, if there's an employee issue, you know, this isn't just an employment, this is how a lot of people are.
If somebody accuses us of something or, or, or says, or says, criticizes us or says, we're not treating them fairly. Our instinct, whether we're a human or a company, is to put up a wall and be defensive. You know, I think for a lot of us. So I think the first step is trying to not have it instantly be your reaction as a company or an HR person when an employee brings an issue, you know, usually some kind of, it might be an issue bringing their personal life into the workplace, for example.
And, you know, that tends to make HR people uncomfortable and we just don't like it. Well, let's, let's maybe get away from our instinct being to get defensive and put a wall up and try to, you know, block the humanity of that situation. The second step is, is definitely the harder one. And that's, I think figuring out which issues are the us-versus-them and, and which aren't, because don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things that happen in the workplace that are so, so maybe damaging or potentially damaging or dangerous.
You know, threatening to, whether it's to an employee or, or the public or, or the business that, that you sort of do have to treat some things like an us-versus-them. And like you said, once you're sued, it's sort of hard at that point to, to put the genie back in the bottle. You know, it is us-versus-them when you're being sued, but there are so many situations.
Like I said, let me throw out some, An employee comes to you with a request for, for a disability accommodation or, or accommodations are a great example. It could be a disability accommodation, a religious accommodation, an accommodation for gender identity. There's lots of things that might, might be even legally required, and that's great.
If you're a company, you should know what your legal requirements are. But I guess I would also say, let's go, where we can, look for ways to do things that maybe are beyond what's legally required. There's a lot of accommodations that an employee may request because of stuff going on at home. You know, kid stuff, kid school stuff, medical stuff that maybe isn't a legal issue like an ADA or an FMLA.
And I'm going to assume our HR audience knows when I throw out some of those acronyms. But that doesn't mean as an HR person or employer, we can't still look at this person as a human and say, hey, we don't have to put our defenses up. Let's see if there's a way that we can work with this person.
And, and I, I feel like I have to say this as a disclaimer, Garrett, forgive me if this sounds too, too cya. As a lawyer, I'm not suggesting at all that someone like me is a lawyer or even an HR person with their own, you know, business or personal ethics. I'm not suggesting put the company second. We're getting paid to do a job.
We put the company first. We really have to, I, I have an, an actual ethical duty. Everyone has their own ethics, but I'm not suggesting ever put an employee's interest over the company's. I mean, a company can do that, that's their business. But I can't, I shouldn't advise them and I don't probably think an HR person should, but I'm really suggesting to just consider, at least consider that there is a human -- and not just a human, a human's family, a human's community, which is often your community, you know, the HR person. Again, I get it, I, I could get very preachy sounding on this, and this could get very big and global sounding, but I think I'll, I'll leave it at there for Yeah. The us the us-versus-them one is a tricky thing.
So the answer is first, get used to it not being your instinct, your knee jerk reaction. Figure out, get better at sorting, which are the us-versus-them situations. And then I guess the third step is, is the really nuanced one. And that's how to handle those that are, are not the ones that are the easy, you know, black and white issues.
[00:18:56] Garrett Jestice: Yeah, for sure. And what's really interesting about what I'm hearing you say too, is it sounds like, and I think we've all experienced this, especially the last few years with, you know, the great resignation and so many other changes happening in this space that there, there is a change happening. You know, in the past maybe companies, there was more of an us-versus-them mentality years ago, and many companies could survive and you know, be successful with that mentality.
But we're seeing employees kind of stand up against that mentality today. And so the best employers out there are the ones who are figuring out how to again, meet employees at the table and figure out how to take care of their employees in order to get the best results for the business also, is that right?
[00:19:43] Bob Coursey: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, and gosh, I, I, another big topic and I know we're limited on time. Let me just say a couple things that, that go in through my mind when you say that one. I absolutely do think times are changing. Now I know people say that all the time, and that's cause it's true times by definition are always changing.
And, and there's labor market ebbs and flows. There's unemployment ebbs and flows. There's obviously inflation ebbs and flows. There's lots of different business and, and financial and fiscal things that are gonna come and go. It's not always gonna be like this. And, and, and it's not just the way that companies treat their employees that are causing all these things to change.
[00:20:25] Bob Coursey: So let's just, let's just not overstate this, but again, I'll, I'll, I'll say I know something. After 24 years of watching, I've seen a lot of these cycles. I firmly believe something fundamental is changing right now. And, and this isn't just me, I'm not gonna claim credit for this, but I do believe this isn't just another cycle where, you know, we have a Democrat president where the unions seem to be gaining power.
You know, the government is getting filled with more democratic appointees so that, you know, that changes the dynamic. We've seen all that before. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, I, I think it's a generational thing really. I think it's the, the, the people in their entering the workforce now and those who are, what did I just read?
Was it the oldest or the youngest millennials or something are entering, entering the workforce? I don't know. I can never keep all the generations right. But it's the 20 somethings, the 30 somethings, you know, and, and, and you know, people with that mentality who could certainly be older, who are really, I think not gonna put up with the same BS ways that companies have treated employees in a very fundamental way, probably since the Industrial revolution.
You know, not to get too big, but you see it in these kids who are just calling BS on companies practices. And, and you know, I'll, I'll tell you, I work with HR people. I know it can be very frustrating. There's a lot of, you know, people say, Oh, they're always whining. They're so entitled. They expect all these things on day one.
[00:21:59] Bob Coursey: Well, we can whine, we can whine about that, or we can say, well, that's, that's our next generation of employees and we have to meet them where they are. I think. So I think the good companies, like you said, either they're already doing it, they're, they're treating, they're starting to get into this a fundamental, I think, paradigm shift of putting the humanity back in the relationship a little bit.
And that's a really simplistic way of saying it, but I, I'm trying to be succinct for time. So the good companies are already doing it, but I'll tell you companies that maybe have never had to worry about this before, if you're paying attention, you're seeing all kinds of things hitting you over the head, telling you, you, whether you want to do this, you can do it for, I'll give you two reasons.
You can do it because you're, you just wanna be altruistic. That's awesome. You know, I, I welcome, I, I, I, I, let's, let's make the world a better place, or if that doesn't float your boat, you can do it for selfish self-interested reasons because you're gonna get lose employees. That's what's we're seeing right now.
Obviously the great resignation and all the other stuff. The quiet quitting, all these, all these things happening. More my world, the unionizing efforts that we are seeing in Utah, which, you know, I know that you probably have people outside of Utah, but most of us are I think here in Utah. Do you guys all know that?
Do you know that we have a Starbucks unionized? Do you know we have union activity here in Utah? Who was it? A friend of mine just told me that their, their spouse just said their, their company is, oh, yeah, I know who it is. A big company union activity that you would not think here in Utah. So you're gonna, you're gonna be, this lesson is gonna get shoved down your throat soon enough, either because of lost employees, lost productivity.
Union activity or being unionized. It, and then a little bit more removed, but along the same lines, more, more call from your, your fellow voters for government action, you know, for government more of a government regulation, which we can all have our own personal political opinions about that, and I certainly do, but, you know, typically companies aren't, aren't clamoring for more regulation of the workplace.
[00:24:09] Bob Coursey: That's not typically what people in my world are wanting. But if we don't treat employees well, I think we deserve it. You know, I, I think we're gonna get. Employees leaving, unions coming, more restrictive laws being passed, and like I said, it's, it'll be, I know it's sort of harsh, but I think it'll be deserved for the company that didn't, didn't try to make a change when they had a chance.
[00:24:33] Garrett Jestice: Great points. And so for those companies who are well intentioned, who want to, are noticing this change that you talked about that is taking place and they wanna balance that compliance while also sh showing sincere care for those employees, what tips you know, would you have for those companies who are realizing that's the state that we're in right now and they want to make a change, but still, you know, maintain a healthy company and also help their employees feel that they actually care. What, what would you recommend they do?
[00:25:06] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I, I, I certainly wish I had really specific 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And if you do these, you'll succeed. I don't have that. I wish I did. I, I will, let me start with this. I, like I said, I'm a one person company. I have never been able to spout off whatever opinion I want about how the workplace should be Because, until I have my own company, because I always had to, you know, it's not like I was often direct disapproval of, of the sa of the message my company was, you know, maybe aligned with, but there's a certain discretion you have to have.
Now, because I'm my own company and because I've been doing this long enough, I, I, I get on my soapbox sometimes. I don't necessarily recommend that every one of you listening, especially if you're sort of newer into HR or newer in your company, take that same approach, you know? I wouldn't go in, you know, you know, just gungho saying, we've gotta save the world. This company needs to start taking care of our employees and make the world a better place.
That's probably not, that's not the best starting position for you as an HR person. And you probably know that it's the same message you hear all the time. HR, yeah, we tend to be the people with, with, you know, big hearts and we care about employees, but if we speak that language to the CEO and CFO and the, the people who are the numbers people, there's gonna be a disconnect.
So HR, the best HR people, that's a great HR skill that every one of you should be honing. How to communicate with the C-Suite people. If you're not, if you're not a company who I think is awesome and you have a HR C-Suite position, that would be certainly awesome. But if you're not, you gotta talk that talk.
So take my message and if this inspires you, that's awesome. But you're gonna have to translate it and probably tone it down and figure out a way to take it to your company. But absolutely. Let me, let me say this. Let's not, again, forget that my point is not put the business. Second, I am saying this will simultaneously, when you put in in, in the, in the appropriate scenarios, when you get into the mindset of looking at your employees, not just as obstacles or nuisances or problems or potential lawsuits, but as real humans allowing yourself to see the humanity.
Not, not maybe some of the, the ways that we as, as HR people and employment lawyers have been training the last 20 years as I've been watching, which is really putting the defenses up, looking for ways to keep any potential legal issue as far out of the workplace as possible. I guess Garrett, that's really where I think you start trying to make a change is in that philosophy at your company and you start in small ways probably, and you do it always combined with, I hate the, I sort of hate the phrase business case, but that's, that is, that's what it is.
This, hey, we're not just doing this to give away the company farm to this employee. There's good things that will flow either immediately. You know, you could talk about we'll save a good employee, you know, this employee, you know, employees are leaving for all kinds of reasons. If we don't take this opportunity to maybe treat this employee as a human and work with them on something that maybe even we don't legally have to, well, they're gonna remember that and maybe they're gonna be going for 10 cents more an hour or whatever.
So, again, so much to say about each of these points, but I think that's my as short as possible answer.
[00:28:43] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Bob, this has been such a great conversation. I know we probably could, we could just keep going on this topic for, you know, so long you have a wealth of knowledge that's clear and we appreciate you bringing with us today. I know we don't have as much time left, but as we, as we kind of wrap up here, if there are listeners who want to get in contact with you, who wanna learn more about this topic or learn more about working with you, what's the best way for them to do that?.
[00:29:07] Bob Coursey: Okay, my email is bobcoursey@modernagelaw.com. My website is Modern Age Employment Law.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. I think it's, goodness gracious, I should know this, but if you, if you Google me or LinkedIn search me, you'll find my, my Bob Coursey profile. I'm on the other socials, but those are, that's probably the best places to find me.
But yes, feel free to shoot me a, an email directly at that email that address that I gave.
[00:29:40] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. And we will drop the links to all of those things you mentioned in the show notes. So if you're listening, maybe driving in the car. Don't worry about writing that down. Just go back to the show notes and check it out. So, Bob, thank you again so much for being with us today and sharing.
Earn your knowledge with us. We hope you have a great rest of the day.
[00:29:55] Bob Coursey: Thanks, Garrett. It was fun. I'm glad I finally did it after a year, hopefully it won't be another year until we talk.
[00:30:00] Garrett Jestice: Amen. Let's do it again soon. Thank you.
[00:30:02] Bob Coursey: Yeah.
Eddy’s HR Mavericks Podcast
Compliance and Caring Aren’t in Conflict w/ Bob Coursey
In episode 70, we talked with Bob Coursey about his take on the intersection between compliance and compassion.
Episode 70
In business, it’s easy to slip into an “us-versus-them” mindset. When an issue arises, there’s the company on one side, the employee on the other, and human resources—or a legal team—stuck in the middle of the fight. But moving away from this adversarial mindset benefits everyone in both the short- and long-term. On this episode of the HR Mavericks podcast, Bob Coursey shares his take on the intersection between compliance and compassion. As an attorney and owner at Modern Age Employment Law LLC, Bob has spent 20-plus years litigating employment law cases. In that time, he’s come to realize that viewing employees as human beings is the key to handling conflict. We talked about:
- The real purpose of employment law (and lawyers)
- How seeing employees as people helps with compliance issues
- Going beyond legal requirements to help employees
- How the younger generations are changing the workforce
- Consequences that come from not treating employees well
- Tips for changing your company’s approach to compliance
Get in touch with Bob by emailing him at bobcoursey@modernagelaw.com or visiting his website.
Bob Coursey
Bob has been an employment law attorney for over 20 years. He spent his first 10 years of practice at Fisher Phillips, one of the most respected employment law firms in the country, where he defended companies in employment related litigation. He then spent 11 years at Employers Council, where he focused his practice on keeping employers out of trouble. In 2021, Bob started his own company—Modern Age Employment Law—where he counsels, represents, and trains employers who are looking for a modern approach to their employment law and HR challenges. Bob earned his bachelor’s degree in English from George Mason University in Virginia in 1992. In 1998, he received his law degree, with honors, from Georgia State University College of Law in Atlanta, where he also served on the Law Review. Bob is licensed to practice law in Utah and Georgia. He’s also a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) and SHRM Senior Certified Professional (SHRM-SCP). Despite all that very dry sounding info, Bob is actually a real person too. He is a music lover, an OK drummer who still dreams of being a rock star, a daily meditator, a Peloton enthusiast, an avid reader, and a lover of Utah’s outdoors. Most importantly, he’s a husband and father of four sons who bring him immense joy.
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Garrett Jestice: Welcome to the next episode of the HR Mavericks podcast. I'm Garrett Jestice, and today I'm joined by Bob Coursey, who's an attorney and owner at Modern Age Employment Law. Bob, how are you doing today?
[00:00:13] Bob Coursey: I'm doing great, Garrett. How are you?
[00:00:16] Garrett Jestice: Doing great. How are you enjoying the cold weather in downtown Salt Lake City today?
[00:00:21] Bob Coursey: God, trying to be philosophical about it, really. I, I'm not a cold weather person. I am, this is a whole nother topic, but I, I, I'm a meditator and I'm trying to be very mindful and appreciative of being in the moment and all things must pass and summer and shorts weather and all that stuff, and cut up t-shirts don't last forever, and I'm trying to find acceptance in knowing that I'll have so much joy next spring when it comes back, but I don't like it. Short answer is I don't like it, but the long answer I just gave you.
[00:00:51] Garrett Jestice: I, I hear you. Good for you. It's, you know, for those outside of Utah right now as we're recording this, we just kind of got the, the cold front that just hit recently. It's like winter's all of a sudden here, which, what happens in Utah. So. Well, Bob, it's great to have you on the show today. Super excited to jump into this topic.
I think it's gonna be really great. But before we do, tell our listeners just a little bit more about your background and also what your company Modern Age Employment Law does.
[00:01:15] Bob Coursey: Okay, let me, I'll start from way back in time and then move up into the present day. So, as you just said, Garrett, my name is Bob Coursey. I'm an employment lawyer. That's really all I've ever done in my, my adult life. Graduated law school in 1998, after taking an employment discrimination class, I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do.
Got a job at an employment law firm called Fisher, Ben Fisher, and Phillips, now just Fisher Phillips. Worked there from 1998 to 2008, litigating employment law cases. So defending companies who are being sued for the most part. That's pretty much 90, probably 95 if not more percent of how I spent my days. Sort of got, not sort of, I really got burned outta that at the end.
Actually quit that job after making partner, which was like everything I worked for. And when I reached it I was sort of like, well, this isn't, ah, I'm not sure if this is what I really want in life. I quit law. I actually quit law for two years. Thought I was done with it. Went out again, another tangent, but went out to be a personal trainer for two years.
I, I tried to do something very unlike law. Something, you know, another part of my personality. That was fun. I liked personal training. I love working with clients. There's actually a lot of similarities as far as the client relationships, but I will tell you, unless, I always say unless you're are training a Kardashian, it's not an easy way to make a living.
So I really struggled financially through that. Went about two years and then found a job at an organization called Employers Council. And there's a lot, lot to say about that, but I'll say it in a very short, concise way. It sort of, it my, my starting that job gave me a new faith that there was a way to practice employment law that I could love.
I did not believe that when I, when I quit a couple of years earlier. So I, my, my focus, I was still doing employment law, but my focus changed. It really totally flipped from defending companies who were being sued. So I was in, working with, in court, I was, you know, I was litigating, that's what we call it, to not litigating at all for about 12 years at Employers Council and really spending most of my time helping companies stay away from litigation, you know, through, through being there on the phone, through, through the emails and the phone calls, and through training companies on compliance, employment related compliance issues.
[00:03:37] Bob Coursey: So that was still practicing employment law, like I said, but a very much more proactive, much more in my experience, life affirming and, and feeling a good feeling way of practicing law. So that, that lasted until I decided to leave there. It was, gosh, almost exactly, almost exactly a year ago, late 2021, I parted with Employers Council, and very quickly decided I wanted to do something that took everything that I really had learned.
Not, not necessarily about employment law, but of course that's important too, but more about how to practice employment law and how to help clients best. Because I'd seen, you know, a decade at a big law firm, I'd seen more than a decade at a, at a, at another organization. They both do a lot of things great. I met tons of great people, but I also feel like I've learned a lot about what I think is the best way to work with clients and to help companies comply with employment laws and really to the focus of our conversation today....
I get a little soapboxy and I feel like I've earned it at this point, almost 25 years in. One thing I really firmly believe in is I want companies to, to think hard about the way they treat employees, not from a legal compliance standpoint, but from treating their employees as real humans. And, and I don't want to get steal our own thunder because that's where we're going, but that sort of brings us to now my, my company Modern Age Employment Law. I've taken the best of what I've learned from my 24 plus years, and now it's just me.
[00:05:17] Bob Coursey: Modern Age Employment Law is, is Bob, is me, which is so much fun. Scary as as hell at first, but I'm sort of through the scary phase. It's working. I love my clients. I can't say enough about 'em. I get to pick and choose who I work with. I don't work with anybody. I don't have to. I have the luxury of working with only clients either I already know or I have a reason to believe are gonna be awesome clients who sort of share my philosophy again, like we'll be talking about momentarily and, and I'll leave it there. But that sort of brings us to where, where, how my practice is today.
[00:05:50] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Awesome, awesome context and, you know, amazing journey that you've been on in your career so far. You know, before we jump into this topic, which you, you kind of alluded to, which is gonna be amazing, tell us a little bit more about the types of companies who you typically work with today for Modern Age Employment Law.
I mean, are these small companies, are they big companies? You know, what are they coming to you for and what do you help them with? The.
[00:06:13] Bob Coursey: Great question, Garrett and I, and thank you. I, I appreciate the chance to answer that Because it's important for companies to know, you know, whether, whether I would be a good fit or not. I tell you, like I said, I'm a one person show. I, I'm gonna sound real cocky. I'm a good one person. I'm real good at what I do, but I'm only one person.
So my, my capacity is limited by that. So I tend to be, my sweet spot are really the companies, for one companies I've known and worked with. You know, either just from, you know, professional or personal settings or friends of friends or LinkedIn connections. I have so many coming to me through connections and that is really cool.
They, they sort of know who I am already. So the, the, it's almost they're pre-screening themselves, but for people who know nothing about me, if you are a 10,000 person copmany, one, you darn well better have a pretty sophisticated HR team, if not a legal team. I'm probably not your guy. I can answer your day to day questions, but if you have big projects, you're probably not gonna be, I'm probably not your guy.
But for those companies who have either no, certainly if you have no HR department, you, you need help. And sometimes that can't be a full-time or even a part-time HR person. So I have a lot of those clients, which is really, those are really rewarding to work with. You know, they're, they're not, they're never gonna be the ones that, that, you know, put my kids through college.
But, they're so great to work with. And at this point in my career, that's really more important to me. but really also the mid-size companies. Those are, most of my companies, companies within the hundreds or low thousands of employees. I have tons of clients over the years who I've helped with in that range.
And those tend to be the ones who are working with me now. So yeah, I work with very small companies, you know, some that are less than 20 employees. That's not gonna keep me busy. I, I probably don't work with any companies, I'm trying to think, that are 10,000 employees or more, maybe not even 5,000 employees or more, but between that huge range in the middle, that's, that's sort of my people.
[00:08:15] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I know that's, you know, it overlaps a lot with our audience for this podcast and also for the HR Mavericks community. And I'll just mention too, before we jump into our topic again, I know, Bob, you got involved, you know, early on with the HR Mavericks community last year when you kind of started this business and have kind of been a member there and assisted, you know, with a lot of stuff.
And we're super happy to have you on the podcast today. Do your first podcast episode as a member of the HR Mavericks community.
[00:08:41] Bob Coursey: Yeah. Garrett, I feel I can't, I I was, I mentioned this a little bit before we started. I can't help but feel a little guilty that here we are a year or so into me connecting with you guys. I, I'll keep this short, but I thought I was gonna be really active with you because I thought I was gonna be working really hard, hustling for clients.
And then this is nothing but great news. The clients came, my awesome clients came, the quality work came. I didn't have time to write all the articles and join in on all the things. So here we are over a year, roughly a year later, and I'm finally contributing. So I'm excited about it.
[00:09:16] Garrett Jestice: Well, we are too. That's okay. I think sometimes, you know, we have lots of members of the community who may have been some of those passive members at first, and then, you know, times and seasons happen and they're able to get more involved. So I want to encourage anyone out there who maybe is a member, you know, if that's the case, then, you know, follow Bob's lead here and, and jump in when the time presents itself. But....
[00:09:38] Bob Coursey: Let me, Garrett, this is not, I, this is, I promised audience. This is not something Garrett asked me to do, but I just wanna tell also publicly, I have been so impressed watching what you guys have done, your activity. I follow it closely. Your growth is so impressive. So I just wanna make sure I say that and, and leave it at that.
[00:09:57] Garrett Jestice: Well, thank you so much. It's, it's thanks to members like you, Right, who can contribute and jump on the podcast and help us with HR Encyclopedia, articles and everything else. So well with that, Bob, I'm super excited to jump into this, this topic. Let's do it. You, you kind of in your intro, talking about your background, kind of laid the groundwork for what we wanna talk about today, which is really this idea that compliance and caring aren't necessarily always in conflict.
And so to start us off on that path a little bit, you know, I'm gonna kind of jump right into it. I think that, you know, many employees believe that employment lawyers who counsel, represent management teams right, are often anti employee. Right, They're out, similar to like what you described a little bit in that first, you know, job that you had where you were doing a lot of litigation, it's really about how do we protect and get the most out of this for the business, but not necessarily for the employee.
So if there are people who feel that way who are listening to this, what would you say to those people?
[00:11:01] Bob Coursey: Well first those people, it's not just employees. Those people include a lot of my friends and even family members. Who, who I think have that mentality that when they hear someone's focus, you know, well first off lawyer, most people don't have great feelings about lawyers in general. So we, I start with that against me.
And then there's, oh, what do you do? I practice employment law. Oh, so you, you help, you help employees who are being treated badly. No, my focus is to help help companies. I help companies and I try to keep them out of trouble. And if they get in trouble, I'll try my best to help them have that trouble be as small as possible.
[00:11:38] Bob Coursey: And, and I, a lot of people, like I said, including my own family, hopefully no one anymore, I've had many talks over the 24 years I've been practicing. A lot of people think that means my job is, you know, I'm the man and my job is to squash the little guy or the little girl, the employees. and, and, it's so far from the truth, and, and that reminds me of really where this whole, the whole idea germinated, if that's the right word. It was a discussion I had with a fellow employment lawyer, a friend of mine now, I won't say her name cause I didn't ask her if, if I have her permission, but she's, now becoming a very good friend and I love her as an employment lawyer. Also, another management side employment lawyer.
And I made a comment, you know, sort of a flippant comment about, you know, keep on fighting the good fight for America's employers. And, and she said, She corrected me in a, in a, stern, but joking, but stern way. She was like, well, actually what I'm doing is protecting employees. And, and what she was doing that day was very much about helping the underdog employees, not trying to help the employer in any way.
And I sort of had one of those moments, like, of course I almost just said her name, but of course, I, I know that I have this discussion with my friends and family all the time, and that inspired me to write a LinkedIn post and that led to an article and that led to this, you know, basically led to us sitting here today.
It is so common for people to think that we employment lawyers who represent mostly management, our job is to, is to make life harder for employees and, and I will tell you, and you, and you said it absolutely correctly, Garrett, at first, that is sort of how I, This is not to badmouth anybody I've ever worked with, but that is sort of how I, I'll put the responsibility on me.
My first 10 years at a employment law law firm where I mostly litigated, that is the mentality I took. And I'm not, I'm not proud of saying it now. It, I'll tell you, it was very effective. I was a very good employment litigator. I got the job done, but I just developed a very, it seems like a very hard shell.
I'm not gonna say anti employee, but certainly the employee's concern really wasn't my concern. My concern was getting my company out of trouble or, or minimizing whatever trouble. If there whatever side effects that might have on the employee or employees was just not my concern. I don't feel like that anymore.
And, and, and I think, again, I'll, I don't wanna get too ahead of ourselves, but I think, I think that answers your question. It gets us poised for wherever you want to go next.
[00:14:13] Garrett Jestice: Yeah. Perfect. And so the next question I have for you really on this topic is, it seems like employment law within companies or, you know, quote unquote compliance initiatives, right? They can often feel like an us-versus-them battle between management and employees, right? And so how do the best businesses out there, how are they changing that narrative?
Like, how, how do, how do businesses move away from that mentality of that like us-versus-them?
[00:14:40] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I think, I think it's, Well, I'll answer it. I think there's two parts. The first part I think is crucial and that's just having, getting away from that being your knee jerk reaction. And I think it relates to what I was just saying, that that did sort of become, my mentality for, you know, my young lawyer life, and I know there's a lot of companies that would, if there's an employee issue, you know, this isn't just an employment, this is how a lot of people are.
If somebody accuses us of something or, or, or says, or says, criticizes us or says, we're not treating them fairly. Our instinct, whether we're a human or a company, is to put up a wall and be defensive. You know, I think for a lot of us. So I think the first step is trying to not have it instantly be your reaction as a company or an HR person when an employee brings an issue, you know, usually some kind of, it might be an issue bringing their personal life into the workplace, for example.
And, you know, that tends to make HR people uncomfortable and we just don't like it. Well, let's, let's maybe get away from our instinct being to get defensive and put a wall up and try to, you know, block the humanity of that situation. The second step is, is definitely the harder one. And that's, I think figuring out which issues are the us-versus-them and, and which aren't, because don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things that happen in the workplace that are so, so maybe damaging or potentially damaging or dangerous.
You know, threatening to, whether it's to an employee or, or the public or, or the business that, that you sort of do have to treat some things like an us-versus-them. And like you said, once you're sued, it's sort of hard at that point to, to put the genie back in the bottle. You know, it is us-versus-them when you're being sued, but there are so many situations.
Like I said, let me throw out some, An employee comes to you with a request for, for a disability accommodation or, or accommodations are a great example. It could be a disability accommodation, a religious accommodation, an accommodation for gender identity. There's lots of things that might, might be even legally required, and that's great.
If you're a company, you should know what your legal requirements are. But I guess I would also say, let's go, where we can, look for ways to do things that maybe are beyond what's legally required. There's a lot of accommodations that an employee may request because of stuff going on at home. You know, kid stuff, kid school stuff, medical stuff that maybe isn't a legal issue like an ADA or an FMLA.
And I'm going to assume our HR audience knows when I throw out some of those acronyms. But that doesn't mean as an HR person or employer, we can't still look at this person as a human and say, hey, we don't have to put our defenses up. Let's see if there's a way that we can work with this person.
And, and I, I feel like I have to say this as a disclaimer, Garrett, forgive me if this sounds too, too cya. As a lawyer, I'm not suggesting at all that someone like me is a lawyer or even an HR person with their own, you know, business or personal ethics. I'm not suggesting put the company second. We're getting paid to do a job.
We put the company first. We really have to, I, I have an, an actual ethical duty. Everyone has their own ethics, but I'm not suggesting ever put an employee's interest over the company's. I mean, a company can do that, that's their business. But I can't, I shouldn't advise them and I don't probably think an HR person should, but I'm really suggesting to just consider, at least consider that there is a human -- and not just a human, a human's family, a human's community, which is often your community, you know, the HR person. Again, I get it, I, I could get very preachy sounding on this, and this could get very big and global sounding, but I think I'll, I'll leave it at there for Yeah. The us the us-versus-them one is a tricky thing.
So the answer is first, get used to it not being your instinct, your knee jerk reaction. Figure out, get better at sorting, which are the us-versus-them situations. And then I guess the third step is, is the really nuanced one. And that's how to handle those that are, are not the ones that are the easy, you know, black and white issues.
[00:18:56] Garrett Jestice: Yeah, for sure. And what's really interesting about what I'm hearing you say too, is it sounds like, and I think we've all experienced this, especially the last few years with, you know, the great resignation and so many other changes happening in this space that there, there is a change happening. You know, in the past maybe companies, there was more of an us-versus-them mentality years ago, and many companies could survive and you know, be successful with that mentality.
But we're seeing employees kind of stand up against that mentality today. And so the best employers out there are the ones who are figuring out how to again, meet employees at the table and figure out how to take care of their employees in order to get the best results for the business also, is that right?
[00:19:43] Bob Coursey: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, and gosh, I, I, another big topic and I know we're limited on time. Let me just say a couple things that, that go in through my mind when you say that one. I absolutely do think times are changing. Now I know people say that all the time, and that's cause it's true times by definition are always changing.
And, and there's labor market ebbs and flows. There's unemployment ebbs and flows. There's obviously inflation ebbs and flows. There's lots of different business and, and financial and fiscal things that are gonna come and go. It's not always gonna be like this. And, and, and it's not just the way that companies treat their employees that are causing all these things to change.
[00:20:25] Bob Coursey: So let's just, let's just not overstate this, but again, I'll, I'll, I'll say I know something. After 24 years of watching, I've seen a lot of these cycles. I firmly believe something fundamental is changing right now. And, and this isn't just me, I'm not gonna claim credit for this, but I do believe this isn't just another cycle where, you know, we have a Democrat president where the unions seem to be gaining power.
You know, the government is getting filled with more democratic appointees so that, you know, that changes the dynamic. We've seen all that before. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, I, I think it's a generational thing really. I think it's the, the, the people in their entering the workforce now and those who are, what did I just read?
Was it the oldest or the youngest millennials or something are entering, entering the workforce? I don't know. I can never keep all the generations right. But it's the 20 somethings, the 30 somethings, you know, and, and, and you know, people with that mentality who could certainly be older, who are really, I think not gonna put up with the same BS ways that companies have treated employees in a very fundamental way, probably since the Industrial revolution.
You know, not to get too big, but you see it in these kids who are just calling BS on companies practices. And, and you know, I'll, I'll tell you, I work with HR people. I know it can be very frustrating. There's a lot of, you know, people say, Oh, they're always whining. They're so entitled. They expect all these things on day one.
[00:21:59] Bob Coursey: Well, we can whine, we can whine about that, or we can say, well, that's, that's our next generation of employees and we have to meet them where they are. I think. So I think the good companies, like you said, either they're already doing it, they're, they're treating, they're starting to get into this a fundamental, I think, paradigm shift of putting the humanity back in the relationship a little bit.
And that's a really simplistic way of saying it, but I, I'm trying to be succinct for time. So the good companies are already doing it, but I'll tell you companies that maybe have never had to worry about this before, if you're paying attention, you're seeing all kinds of things hitting you over the head, telling you, you, whether you want to do this, you can do it for, I'll give you two reasons.
You can do it because you're, you just wanna be altruistic. That's awesome. You know, I, I welcome, I, I, I, I, let's, let's make the world a better place, or if that doesn't float your boat, you can do it for selfish self-interested reasons because you're gonna get lose employees. That's what's we're seeing right now.
Obviously the great resignation and all the other stuff. The quiet quitting, all these, all these things happening. More my world, the unionizing efforts that we are seeing in Utah, which, you know, I know that you probably have people outside of Utah, but most of us are I think here in Utah. Do you guys all know that?
Do you know that we have a Starbucks unionized? Do you know we have union activity here in Utah? Who was it? A friend of mine just told me that their, their spouse just said their, their company is, oh, yeah, I know who it is. A big company union activity that you would not think here in Utah. So you're gonna, you're gonna be, this lesson is gonna get shoved down your throat soon enough, either because of lost employees, lost productivity.
Union activity or being unionized. It, and then a little bit more removed, but along the same lines, more, more call from your, your fellow voters for government action, you know, for government more of a government regulation, which we can all have our own personal political opinions about that, and I certainly do, but, you know, typically companies aren't, aren't clamoring for more regulation of the workplace.
[00:24:09] Bob Coursey: That's not typically what people in my world are wanting. But if we don't treat employees well, I think we deserve it. You know, I, I think we're gonna get. Employees leaving, unions coming, more restrictive laws being passed, and like I said, it's, it'll be, I know it's sort of harsh, but I think it'll be deserved for the company that didn't, didn't try to make a change when they had a chance.
[00:24:33] Garrett Jestice: Great points. And so for those companies who are well intentioned, who want to, are noticing this change that you talked about that is taking place and they wanna balance that compliance while also sh showing sincere care for those employees, what tips you know, would you have for those companies who are realizing that's the state that we're in right now and they want to make a change, but still, you know, maintain a healthy company and also help their employees feel that they actually care. What, what would you recommend they do?
[00:25:06] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I, I, I certainly wish I had really specific 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And if you do these, you'll succeed. I don't have that. I wish I did. I, I will, let me start with this. I, like I said, I'm a one person company. I have never been able to spout off whatever opinion I want about how the workplace should be Because, until I have my own company, because I always had to, you know, it's not like I was often direct disapproval of, of the sa of the message my company was, you know, maybe aligned with, but there's a certain discretion you have to have.
Now, because I'm my own company and because I've been doing this long enough, I, I, I get on my soapbox sometimes. I don't necessarily recommend that every one of you listening, especially if you're sort of newer into HR or newer in your company, take that same approach, you know? I wouldn't go in, you know, you know, just gungho saying, we've gotta save the world. This company needs to start taking care of our employees and make the world a better place.
That's probably not, that's not the best starting position for you as an HR person. And you probably know that it's the same message you hear all the time. HR, yeah, we tend to be the people with, with, you know, big hearts and we care about employees, but if we speak that language to the CEO and CFO and the, the people who are the numbers people, there's gonna be a disconnect.
So HR, the best HR people, that's a great HR skill that every one of you should be honing. How to communicate with the C-Suite people. If you're not, if you're not a company who I think is awesome and you have a HR C-Suite position, that would be certainly awesome. But if you're not, you gotta talk that talk.
So take my message and if this inspires you, that's awesome. But you're gonna have to translate it and probably tone it down and figure out a way to take it to your company. But absolutely. Let me, let me say this. Let's not, again, forget that my point is not put the business. Second, I am saying this will simultaneously, when you put in in, in the, in the appropriate scenarios, when you get into the mindset of looking at your employees, not just as obstacles or nuisances or problems or potential lawsuits, but as real humans allowing yourself to see the humanity.
Not, not maybe some of the, the ways that we as, as HR people and employment lawyers have been training the last 20 years as I've been watching, which is really putting the defenses up, looking for ways to keep any potential legal issue as far out of the workplace as possible. I guess Garrett, that's really where I think you start trying to make a change is in that philosophy at your company and you start in small ways probably, and you do it always combined with, I hate the, I sort of hate the phrase business case, but that's, that is, that's what it is.
This, hey, we're not just doing this to give away the company farm to this employee. There's good things that will flow either immediately. You know, you could talk about we'll save a good employee, you know, this employee, you know, employees are leaving for all kinds of reasons. If we don't take this opportunity to maybe treat this employee as a human and work with them on something that maybe even we don't legally have to, well, they're gonna remember that and maybe they're gonna be going for 10 cents more an hour or whatever.
So, again, so much to say about each of these points, but I think that's my as short as possible answer.
[00:28:43] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Bob, this has been such a great conversation. I know we probably could, we could just keep going on this topic for, you know, so long you have a wealth of knowledge that's clear and we appreciate you bringing with us today. I know we don't have as much time left, but as we, as we kind of wrap up here, if there are listeners who want to get in contact with you, who wanna learn more about this topic or learn more about working with you, what's the best way for them to do that?.
[00:29:07] Bob Coursey: Okay, my email is bobcoursey@modernagelaw.com. My website is Modern Age Employment Law.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. I think it's, goodness gracious, I should know this, but if you, if you Google me or LinkedIn search me, you'll find my, my Bob Coursey profile. I'm on the other socials, but those are, that's probably the best places to find me.
But yes, feel free to shoot me a, an email directly at that email that address that I gave.
[00:29:40] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. And we will drop the links to all of those things you mentioned in the show notes. So if you're listening, maybe driving in the car. Don't worry about writing that down. Just go back to the show notes and check it out. So, Bob, thank you again so much for being with us today and sharing.
Earn your knowledge with us. We hope you have a great rest of the day.
[00:29:55] Bob Coursey: Thanks, Garrett. It was fun. I'm glad I finally did it after a year, hopefully it won't be another year until we talk.
[00:30:00] Garrett Jestice: Amen. Let's do it again soon. Thank you.
[00:30:02] Bob Coursey: Yeah.
[00:00:13] Bob Coursey: I'm doing great, Garrett. How are you?
[00:00:16] Garrett Jestice: Doing great. How are you enjoying the cold weather in downtown Salt Lake City today?
[00:00:21] Bob Coursey: God, trying to be philosophical about it, really. I, I'm not a cold weather person. I am, this is a whole nother topic, but I, I, I'm a meditator and I'm trying to be very mindful and appreciative of being in the moment and all things must pass and summer and shorts weather and all that stuff, and cut up t-shirts don't last forever, and I'm trying to find acceptance in knowing that I'll have so much joy next spring when it comes back, but I don't like it. Short answer is I don't like it, but the long answer I just gave you.
[00:00:51] Garrett Jestice: I, I hear you. Good for you. It's, you know, for those outside of Utah right now as we're recording this, we just kind of got the, the cold front that just hit recently. It's like winter's all of a sudden here, which, what happens in Utah. So. Well, Bob, it's great to have you on the show today. Super excited to jump into this topic.
I think it's gonna be really great. But before we do, tell our listeners just a little bit more about your background and also what your company Modern Age Employment Law does.
[00:01:15] Bob Coursey: Okay, let me, I'll start from way back in time and then move up into the present day. So, as you just said, Garrett, my name is Bob Coursey. I'm an employment lawyer. That's really all I've ever done in my, my adult life. Graduated law school in 1998, after taking an employment discrimination class, I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do.
Got a job at an employment law firm called Fisher, Ben Fisher, and Phillips, now just Fisher Phillips. Worked there from 1998 to 2008, litigating employment law cases. So defending companies who are being sued for the most part. That's pretty much 90, probably 95 if not more percent of how I spent my days. Sort of got, not sort of, I really got burned outta that at the end.
Actually quit that job after making partner, which was like everything I worked for. And when I reached it I was sort of like, well, this isn't, ah, I'm not sure if this is what I really want in life. I quit law. I actually quit law for two years. Thought I was done with it. Went out again, another tangent, but went out to be a personal trainer for two years.
I, I tried to do something very unlike law. Something, you know, another part of my personality. That was fun. I liked personal training. I love working with clients. There's actually a lot of similarities as far as the client relationships, but I will tell you, unless, I always say unless you're are training a Kardashian, it's not an easy way to make a living.
So I really struggled financially through that. Went about two years and then found a job at an organization called Employers Council. And there's a lot, lot to say about that, but I'll say it in a very short, concise way. It sort of, it my, my starting that job gave me a new faith that there was a way to practice employment law that I could love.
I did not believe that when I, when I quit a couple of years earlier. So I, my, my focus, I was still doing employment law, but my focus changed. It really totally flipped from defending companies who were being sued. So I was in, working with, in court, I was, you know, I was litigating, that's what we call it, to not litigating at all for about 12 years at Employers Council and really spending most of my time helping companies stay away from litigation, you know, through, through being there on the phone, through, through the emails and the phone calls, and through training companies on compliance, employment related compliance issues.
[00:03:37] Bob Coursey: So that was still practicing employment law, like I said, but a very much more proactive, much more in my experience, life affirming and, and feeling a good feeling way of practicing law. So that, that lasted until I decided to leave there. It was, gosh, almost exactly, almost exactly a year ago, late 2021, I parted with Employers Council, and very quickly decided I wanted to do something that took everything that I really had learned.
Not, not necessarily about employment law, but of course that's important too, but more about how to practice employment law and how to help clients best. Because I'd seen, you know, a decade at a big law firm, I'd seen more than a decade at a, at a, at another organization. They both do a lot of things great. I met tons of great people, but I also feel like I've learned a lot about what I think is the best way to work with clients and to help companies comply with employment laws and really to the focus of our conversation today....
I get a little soapboxy and I feel like I've earned it at this point, almost 25 years in. One thing I really firmly believe in is I want companies to, to think hard about the way they treat employees, not from a legal compliance standpoint, but from treating their employees as real humans. And, and I don't want to get steal our own thunder because that's where we're going, but that sort of brings us to now my, my company Modern Age Employment Law. I've taken the best of what I've learned from my 24 plus years, and now it's just me.
[00:05:17] Bob Coursey: Modern Age Employment Law is, is Bob, is me, which is so much fun. Scary as as hell at first, but I'm sort of through the scary phase. It's working. I love my clients. I can't say enough about 'em. I get to pick and choose who I work with. I don't work with anybody. I don't have to. I have the luxury of working with only clients either I already know or I have a reason to believe are gonna be awesome clients who sort of share my philosophy again, like we'll be talking about momentarily and, and I'll leave it there. But that sort of brings us to where, where, how my practice is today.
[00:05:50] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Awesome, awesome context and, you know, amazing journey that you've been on in your career so far. You know, before we jump into this topic, which you, you kind of alluded to, which is gonna be amazing, tell us a little bit more about the types of companies who you typically work with today for Modern Age Employment Law.
I mean, are these small companies, are they big companies? You know, what are they coming to you for and what do you help them with? The.
[00:06:13] Bob Coursey: Great question, Garrett and I, and thank you. I, I appreciate the chance to answer that Because it's important for companies to know, you know, whether, whether I would be a good fit or not. I tell you, like I said, I'm a one person show. I, I'm gonna sound real cocky. I'm a good one person. I'm real good at what I do, but I'm only one person.
So my, my capacity is limited by that. So I tend to be, my sweet spot are really the companies, for one companies I've known and worked with. You know, either just from, you know, professional or personal settings or friends of friends or LinkedIn connections. I have so many coming to me through connections and that is really cool.
They, they sort of know who I am already. So the, the, it's almost they're pre-screening themselves, but for people who know nothing about me, if you are a 10,000 person copmany, one, you darn well better have a pretty sophisticated HR team, if not a legal team. I'm probably not your guy. I can answer your day to day questions, but if you have big projects, you're probably not gonna be, I'm probably not your guy.
But for those companies who have either no, certainly if you have no HR department, you, you need help. And sometimes that can't be a full-time or even a part-time HR person. So I have a lot of those clients, which is really, those are really rewarding to work with. You know, they're, they're not, they're never gonna be the ones that, that, you know, put my kids through college.
But, they're so great to work with. And at this point in my career, that's really more important to me. but really also the mid-size companies. Those are, most of my companies, companies within the hundreds or low thousands of employees. I have tons of clients over the years who I've helped with in that range.
And those tend to be the ones who are working with me now. So yeah, I work with very small companies, you know, some that are less than 20 employees. That's not gonna keep me busy. I, I probably don't work with any companies, I'm trying to think, that are 10,000 employees or more, maybe not even 5,000 employees or more, but between that huge range in the middle, that's, that's sort of my people.
[00:08:15] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I know that's, you know, it overlaps a lot with our audience for this podcast and also for the HR Mavericks community. And I'll just mention too, before we jump into our topic again, I know, Bob, you got involved, you know, early on with the HR Mavericks community last year when you kind of started this business and have kind of been a member there and assisted, you know, with a lot of stuff.
And we're super happy to have you on the podcast today. Do your first podcast episode as a member of the HR Mavericks community.
[00:08:41] Bob Coursey: Yeah. Garrett, I feel I can't, I I was, I mentioned this a little bit before we started. I can't help but feel a little guilty that here we are a year or so into me connecting with you guys. I, I'll keep this short, but I thought I was gonna be really active with you because I thought I was gonna be working really hard, hustling for clients.
And then this is nothing but great news. The clients came, my awesome clients came, the quality work came. I didn't have time to write all the articles and join in on all the things. So here we are over a year, roughly a year later, and I'm finally contributing. So I'm excited about it.
[00:09:16] Garrett Jestice: Well, we are too. That's okay. I think sometimes, you know, we have lots of members of the community who may have been some of those passive members at first, and then, you know, times and seasons happen and they're able to get more involved. So I want to encourage anyone out there who maybe is a member, you know, if that's the case, then, you know, follow Bob's lead here and, and jump in when the time presents itself. But....
[00:09:38] Bob Coursey: Let me, Garrett, this is not, I, this is, I promised audience. This is not something Garrett asked me to do, but I just wanna tell also publicly, I have been so impressed watching what you guys have done, your activity. I follow it closely. Your growth is so impressive. So I just wanna make sure I say that and, and leave it at that.
[00:09:57] Garrett Jestice: Well, thank you so much. It's, it's thanks to members like you, Right, who can contribute and jump on the podcast and help us with HR Encyclopedia, articles and everything else. So well with that, Bob, I'm super excited to jump into this, this topic. Let's do it. You, you kind of in your intro, talking about your background, kind of laid the groundwork for what we wanna talk about today, which is really this idea that compliance and caring aren't necessarily always in conflict.
And so to start us off on that path a little bit, you know, I'm gonna kind of jump right into it. I think that, you know, many employees believe that employment lawyers who counsel, represent management teams right, are often anti employee. Right, They're out, similar to like what you described a little bit in that first, you know, job that you had where you were doing a lot of litigation, it's really about how do we protect and get the most out of this for the business, but not necessarily for the employee.
So if there are people who feel that way who are listening to this, what would you say to those people?
[00:11:01] Bob Coursey: Well first those people, it's not just employees. Those people include a lot of my friends and even family members. Who, who I think have that mentality that when they hear someone's focus, you know, well first off lawyer, most people don't have great feelings about lawyers in general. So we, I start with that against me.
And then there's, oh, what do you do? I practice employment law. Oh, so you, you help, you help employees who are being treated badly. No, my focus is to help help companies. I help companies and I try to keep them out of trouble. And if they get in trouble, I'll try my best to help them have that trouble be as small as possible.
[00:11:38] Bob Coursey: And, and I, a lot of people, like I said, including my own family, hopefully no one anymore, I've had many talks over the 24 years I've been practicing. A lot of people think that means my job is, you know, I'm the man and my job is to squash the little guy or the little girl, the employees. and, and, it's so far from the truth, and, and that reminds me of really where this whole, the whole idea germinated, if that's the right word. It was a discussion I had with a fellow employment lawyer, a friend of mine now, I won't say her name cause I didn't ask her if, if I have her permission, but she's, now becoming a very good friend and I love her as an employment lawyer. Also, another management side employment lawyer.
And I made a comment, you know, sort of a flippant comment about, you know, keep on fighting the good fight for America's employers. And, and she said, She corrected me in a, in a, stern, but joking, but stern way. She was like, well, actually what I'm doing is protecting employees. And, and what she was doing that day was very much about helping the underdog employees, not trying to help the employer in any way.
And I sort of had one of those moments, like, of course I almost just said her name, but of course, I, I know that I have this discussion with my friends and family all the time, and that inspired me to write a LinkedIn post and that led to an article and that led to this, you know, basically led to us sitting here today.
It is so common for people to think that we employment lawyers who represent mostly management, our job is to, is to make life harder for employees and, and I will tell you, and you, and you said it absolutely correctly, Garrett, at first, that is sort of how I, This is not to badmouth anybody I've ever worked with, but that is sort of how I, I'll put the responsibility on me.
My first 10 years at a employment law law firm where I mostly litigated, that is the mentality I took. And I'm not, I'm not proud of saying it now. It, I'll tell you, it was very effective. I was a very good employment litigator. I got the job done, but I just developed a very, it seems like a very hard shell.
I'm not gonna say anti employee, but certainly the employee's concern really wasn't my concern. My concern was getting my company out of trouble or, or minimizing whatever trouble. If there whatever side effects that might have on the employee or employees was just not my concern. I don't feel like that anymore.
And, and, and I think, again, I'll, I don't wanna get too ahead of ourselves, but I think, I think that answers your question. It gets us poised for wherever you want to go next.
[00:14:13] Garrett Jestice: Yeah. Perfect. And so the next question I have for you really on this topic is, it seems like employment law within companies or, you know, quote unquote compliance initiatives, right? They can often feel like an us-versus-them battle between management and employees, right? And so how do the best businesses out there, how are they changing that narrative?
Like, how, how do, how do businesses move away from that mentality of that like us-versus-them?
[00:14:40] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I think, I think it's, Well, I'll answer it. I think there's two parts. The first part I think is crucial and that's just having, getting away from that being your knee jerk reaction. And I think it relates to what I was just saying, that that did sort of become, my mentality for, you know, my young lawyer life, and I know there's a lot of companies that would, if there's an employee issue, you know, this isn't just an employment, this is how a lot of people are.
If somebody accuses us of something or, or, or says, or says, criticizes us or says, we're not treating them fairly. Our instinct, whether we're a human or a company, is to put up a wall and be defensive. You know, I think for a lot of us. So I think the first step is trying to not have it instantly be your reaction as a company or an HR person when an employee brings an issue, you know, usually some kind of, it might be an issue bringing their personal life into the workplace, for example.
And, you know, that tends to make HR people uncomfortable and we just don't like it. Well, let's, let's maybe get away from our instinct being to get defensive and put a wall up and try to, you know, block the humanity of that situation. The second step is, is definitely the harder one. And that's, I think figuring out which issues are the us-versus-them and, and which aren't, because don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things that happen in the workplace that are so, so maybe damaging or potentially damaging or dangerous.
You know, threatening to, whether it's to an employee or, or the public or, or the business that, that you sort of do have to treat some things like an us-versus-them. And like you said, once you're sued, it's sort of hard at that point to, to put the genie back in the bottle. You know, it is us-versus-them when you're being sued, but there are so many situations.
Like I said, let me throw out some, An employee comes to you with a request for, for a disability accommodation or, or accommodations are a great example. It could be a disability accommodation, a religious accommodation, an accommodation for gender identity. There's lots of things that might, might be even legally required, and that's great.
If you're a company, you should know what your legal requirements are. But I guess I would also say, let's go, where we can, look for ways to do things that maybe are beyond what's legally required. There's a lot of accommodations that an employee may request because of stuff going on at home. You know, kid stuff, kid school stuff, medical stuff that maybe isn't a legal issue like an ADA or an FMLA.
And I'm going to assume our HR audience knows when I throw out some of those acronyms. But that doesn't mean as an HR person or employer, we can't still look at this person as a human and say, hey, we don't have to put our defenses up. Let's see if there's a way that we can work with this person.
And, and I, I feel like I have to say this as a disclaimer, Garrett, forgive me if this sounds too, too cya. As a lawyer, I'm not suggesting at all that someone like me is a lawyer or even an HR person with their own, you know, business or personal ethics. I'm not suggesting put the company second. We're getting paid to do a job.
We put the company first. We really have to, I, I have an, an actual ethical duty. Everyone has their own ethics, but I'm not suggesting ever put an employee's interest over the company's. I mean, a company can do that, that's their business. But I can't, I shouldn't advise them and I don't probably think an HR person should, but I'm really suggesting to just consider, at least consider that there is a human -- and not just a human, a human's family, a human's community, which is often your community, you know, the HR person. Again, I get it, I, I could get very preachy sounding on this, and this could get very big and global sounding, but I think I'll, I'll leave it at there for Yeah. The us the us-versus-them one is a tricky thing.
So the answer is first, get used to it not being your instinct, your knee jerk reaction. Figure out, get better at sorting, which are the us-versus-them situations. And then I guess the third step is, is the really nuanced one. And that's how to handle those that are, are not the ones that are the easy, you know, black and white issues.
[00:18:56] Garrett Jestice: Yeah, for sure. And what's really interesting about what I'm hearing you say too, is it sounds like, and I think we've all experienced this, especially the last few years with, you know, the great resignation and so many other changes happening in this space that there, there is a change happening. You know, in the past maybe companies, there was more of an us-versus-them mentality years ago, and many companies could survive and you know, be successful with that mentality.
But we're seeing employees kind of stand up against that mentality today. And so the best employers out there are the ones who are figuring out how to again, meet employees at the table and figure out how to take care of their employees in order to get the best results for the business also, is that right?
[00:19:43] Bob Coursey: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, and gosh, I, I, another big topic and I know we're limited on time. Let me just say a couple things that, that go in through my mind when you say that one. I absolutely do think times are changing. Now I know people say that all the time, and that's cause it's true times by definition are always changing.
And, and there's labor market ebbs and flows. There's unemployment ebbs and flows. There's obviously inflation ebbs and flows. There's lots of different business and, and financial and fiscal things that are gonna come and go. It's not always gonna be like this. And, and, and it's not just the way that companies treat their employees that are causing all these things to change.
[00:20:25] Bob Coursey: So let's just, let's just not overstate this, but again, I'll, I'll, I'll say I know something. After 24 years of watching, I've seen a lot of these cycles. I firmly believe something fundamental is changing right now. And, and this isn't just me, I'm not gonna claim credit for this, but I do believe this isn't just another cycle where, you know, we have a Democrat president where the unions seem to be gaining power.
You know, the government is getting filled with more democratic appointees so that, you know, that changes the dynamic. We've seen all that before. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, I, I think it's a generational thing really. I think it's the, the, the people in their entering the workforce now and those who are, what did I just read?
Was it the oldest or the youngest millennials or something are entering, entering the workforce? I don't know. I can never keep all the generations right. But it's the 20 somethings, the 30 somethings, you know, and, and, and you know, people with that mentality who could certainly be older, who are really, I think not gonna put up with the same BS ways that companies have treated employees in a very fundamental way, probably since the Industrial revolution.
You know, not to get too big, but you see it in these kids who are just calling BS on companies practices. And, and you know, I'll, I'll tell you, I work with HR people. I know it can be very frustrating. There's a lot of, you know, people say, Oh, they're always whining. They're so entitled. They expect all these things on day one.
[00:21:59] Bob Coursey: Well, we can whine, we can whine about that, or we can say, well, that's, that's our next generation of employees and we have to meet them where they are. I think. So I think the good companies, like you said, either they're already doing it, they're, they're treating, they're starting to get into this a fundamental, I think, paradigm shift of putting the humanity back in the relationship a little bit.
And that's a really simplistic way of saying it, but I, I'm trying to be succinct for time. So the good companies are already doing it, but I'll tell you companies that maybe have never had to worry about this before, if you're paying attention, you're seeing all kinds of things hitting you over the head, telling you, you, whether you want to do this, you can do it for, I'll give you two reasons.
You can do it because you're, you just wanna be altruistic. That's awesome. You know, I, I welcome, I, I, I, I, let's, let's make the world a better place, or if that doesn't float your boat, you can do it for selfish self-interested reasons because you're gonna get lose employees. That's what's we're seeing right now.
Obviously the great resignation and all the other stuff. The quiet quitting, all these, all these things happening. More my world, the unionizing efforts that we are seeing in Utah, which, you know, I know that you probably have people outside of Utah, but most of us are I think here in Utah. Do you guys all know that?
Do you know that we have a Starbucks unionized? Do you know we have union activity here in Utah? Who was it? A friend of mine just told me that their, their spouse just said their, their company is, oh, yeah, I know who it is. A big company union activity that you would not think here in Utah. So you're gonna, you're gonna be, this lesson is gonna get shoved down your throat soon enough, either because of lost employees, lost productivity.
Union activity or being unionized. It, and then a little bit more removed, but along the same lines, more, more call from your, your fellow voters for government action, you know, for government more of a government regulation, which we can all have our own personal political opinions about that, and I certainly do, but, you know, typically companies aren't, aren't clamoring for more regulation of the workplace.
[00:24:09] Bob Coursey: That's not typically what people in my world are wanting. But if we don't treat employees well, I think we deserve it. You know, I, I think we're gonna get. Employees leaving, unions coming, more restrictive laws being passed, and like I said, it's, it'll be, I know it's sort of harsh, but I think it'll be deserved for the company that didn't, didn't try to make a change when they had a chance.
[00:24:33] Garrett Jestice: Great points. And so for those companies who are well intentioned, who want to, are noticing this change that you talked about that is taking place and they wanna balance that compliance while also sh showing sincere care for those employees, what tips you know, would you have for those companies who are realizing that's the state that we're in right now and they want to make a change, but still, you know, maintain a healthy company and also help their employees feel that they actually care. What, what would you recommend they do?
[00:25:06] Bob Coursey: Gosh, I, I, I certainly wish I had really specific 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And if you do these, you'll succeed. I don't have that. I wish I did. I, I will, let me start with this. I, like I said, I'm a one person company. I have never been able to spout off whatever opinion I want about how the workplace should be Because, until I have my own company, because I always had to, you know, it's not like I was often direct disapproval of, of the sa of the message my company was, you know, maybe aligned with, but there's a certain discretion you have to have.
Now, because I'm my own company and because I've been doing this long enough, I, I, I get on my soapbox sometimes. I don't necessarily recommend that every one of you listening, especially if you're sort of newer into HR or newer in your company, take that same approach, you know? I wouldn't go in, you know, you know, just gungho saying, we've gotta save the world. This company needs to start taking care of our employees and make the world a better place.
That's probably not, that's not the best starting position for you as an HR person. And you probably know that it's the same message you hear all the time. HR, yeah, we tend to be the people with, with, you know, big hearts and we care about employees, but if we speak that language to the CEO and CFO and the, the people who are the numbers people, there's gonna be a disconnect.
So HR, the best HR people, that's a great HR skill that every one of you should be honing. How to communicate with the C-Suite people. If you're not, if you're not a company who I think is awesome and you have a HR C-Suite position, that would be certainly awesome. But if you're not, you gotta talk that talk.
So take my message and if this inspires you, that's awesome. But you're gonna have to translate it and probably tone it down and figure out a way to take it to your company. But absolutely. Let me, let me say this. Let's not, again, forget that my point is not put the business. Second, I am saying this will simultaneously, when you put in in, in the, in the appropriate scenarios, when you get into the mindset of looking at your employees, not just as obstacles or nuisances or problems or potential lawsuits, but as real humans allowing yourself to see the humanity.
Not, not maybe some of the, the ways that we as, as HR people and employment lawyers have been training the last 20 years as I've been watching, which is really putting the defenses up, looking for ways to keep any potential legal issue as far out of the workplace as possible. I guess Garrett, that's really where I think you start trying to make a change is in that philosophy at your company and you start in small ways probably, and you do it always combined with, I hate the, I sort of hate the phrase business case, but that's, that is, that's what it is.
This, hey, we're not just doing this to give away the company farm to this employee. There's good things that will flow either immediately. You know, you could talk about we'll save a good employee, you know, this employee, you know, employees are leaving for all kinds of reasons. If we don't take this opportunity to maybe treat this employee as a human and work with them on something that maybe even we don't legally have to, well, they're gonna remember that and maybe they're gonna be going for 10 cents more an hour or whatever.
So, again, so much to say about each of these points, but I think that's my as short as possible answer.
[00:28:43] Garrett Jestice: I love it. Bob, this has been such a great conversation. I know we probably could, we could just keep going on this topic for, you know, so long you have a wealth of knowledge that's clear and we appreciate you bringing with us today. I know we don't have as much time left, but as we, as we kind of wrap up here, if there are listeners who want to get in contact with you, who wanna learn more about this topic or learn more about working with you, what's the best way for them to do that?.
[00:29:07] Bob Coursey: Okay, my email is bobcoursey@modernagelaw.com. My website is Modern Age Employment Law.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. I think it's, goodness gracious, I should know this, but if you, if you Google me or LinkedIn search me, you'll find my, my Bob Coursey profile. I'm on the other socials, but those are, that's probably the best places to find me.
But yes, feel free to shoot me a, an email directly at that email that address that I gave.
[00:29:40] Garrett Jestice: Perfect. And we will drop the links to all of those things you mentioned in the show notes. So if you're listening, maybe driving in the car. Don't worry about writing that down. Just go back to the show notes and check it out. So, Bob, thank you again so much for being with us today and sharing.
Earn your knowledge with us. We hope you have a great rest of the day.
[00:29:55] Bob Coursey: Thanks, Garrett. It was fun. I'm glad I finally did it after a year, hopefully it won't be another year until we talk.
[00:30:00] Garrett Jestice: Amen. Let's do it again soon. Thank you.
[00:30:02] Bob Coursey: Yeah.
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